November 30, 2007...2:41 pm
Conversation With Author Nori Muster - Former Hari Krishna Ji
BETRAYAL OF THE SPIRIT - My Life Behind The Headlines Of The Hari Krishna Movement, by Nori J. Muster
http://surrealist.org/betrayalofthespirit/index.html
NORI MUSTER: I was in ISKCON (the Hari Krishna Movement) the worst possible decade, a witness to all the criminal, unethical activity. Srila Prabhupada died Nov. 1977 and that was when I met devotees. I had heard somewhere that Prabhupada was dead and asked the devotees about it when I met them. They got me to join them, but from there on it was all downhill - the conspirators pulled the organization down to hell.
Lucky for them, they had a great new p.r. department and legal department to cover whatever problems they might create. As soon as I moved into the temple, I went to work for the p.r. department and worked for them the whole ten years, giving me a context to observe what they did to ISKCON. I was in it 1978 to the end of 1988.
Sikh Dharma/3HO and ISKCON had a lot in common and many members of one group also belonged to the other at various times.
KAMALLA ROSE KAUR: The Phildelphia Yogi Bhajan Ashram was in the same neighborhood as the Krishna temple and compound.
Thinking back on it now, we were pretty competitive and judgemental and gossipy about each other. We thought the Krishna jis were sugar addicts and the Krishna jis thought we were worst - and we were all right! Now we all look the same to me, all Eastern religion junkies!
What was your daily schedule like? When did you rise and what did you eat and how long did you toil and how little did you sleep?
NORI MUSTERi:
I agree about Eastern religious junkies - and to think I was one of them - yikes!!
The L.A. temple, where I lived, was close to the Robertson Blvd. Sikh ashram. Your neighborhood was a little better than ours 
L.A. is a big city, with many kinds of people, so we did not pay any attention to what they were doing up on Robertson. Although, at one time before Watseka Ave., the L.A. ISKCON was on Robertson, too.
re. ISKCON diet. Everything was fried or sugar. I could not eat the food at all. Sometimes they would have dahl, or something with no sugar. They were stubborn about it too. They thought sugary, oily food would attract new devotees. Maybe kill them off sooner too. I knew of at least one devotee who died of diabetic shock.
re. daily schedule. I got up about 4 a.m. or earlier to chant and attend the morning program (arotik, kirtan, japa, class, etc.) I enjoyed the morning program. If that was all there was to it, I would have had a great time.
At first moving in, I would get up early and stay up all day. But after a few years, I always needed a nap after the morning program. Then I would finish my japa and go to work. Work all day and night, then sleep.
I worked in the p.r. department. At first as a secretary, but later full time on the ISKCON World Revew, the organization’s internal newspaper.
What did Sikh Dharma/3HO do in the mornings?
In 3HO, I understand householders were encouraged to have careers, like chiropractic, but did they expect you to tithe? Did some members work and live full time, supported by the organization?
X-Yogi Bhajan Student 1:
OMG! Welcome! It was years ago, but I read your book and really looked up to your accomplishments, (book included!).
Most people were encouraged to work, though there were family businesses which employed many to most of us. We had the Golden Temple Restaurants, different house cleaning businesses, landscaping businesses, the notorious phone scam and jewelry scam businesses in LA which tried to recruit people from across the country, etc. At this point, like in most cults after the leader dies, many have grouped around the major centers. Right now there is Akal Security, Yogi Tea, and other large successful businesses which can employ adherents. Kamalla can be more specific about that if you are interested.
Heads of ashrams, secretaries, etc. were also paid by the general sangat and didn’t have to worry about making a living. A few people became accountants, doctors, and lawyers, but most did have trouble looking so different. If someone did make big money somehow, Yogi Bhajan would usually take notice and find some pretense to include them in his world. That way he could use their money and donations.
I, personally was a substitute teacher. It really wasn’t that difficult. Kids are mostly interested in themselves, and when they realized that I was just there to teach, I don’t think I had any more trouble than most.
As far as tithing, the organization they have set up is called Das Vandh, and it’s the usual 10% situation. I think now that they have codified yoga classes, they expect more for that now as well. Bhajan himself used to find ways to milk the wealthy personally. Plus there were the various courses that our lives revolved around that were run by the 3HO.
Our “sadahanas” or morning practices generally started at 4am. After oiling our bodies, we would take a cold shower and arrive for yoga chanting, and a short Sikh religious service. I think the whole thing took about 3 and a half hours. We were also expected to read 5 prayers throughout the day, though I can count on my fingers how many times that happened. There were also evening yoga classes, Yogi Bhajan lectures and chanting.
On a personal note, I used to think we were better than so many groups because so much was expected of us. I honestly feel that I would have gotten a teaching degree or some sort of other career had I not spent 20+ years studying Yogi Bhajan. I entered straight out of college, but never used my degree for anything. If I remember correctly, you were involved with the publishing and P.R. when in the Hari Krishnas. I guess that means they weren’t as mysogynist as they are reputed to be.
I look forward to more discussions about our respective groups. As far as I know, they were the two main “heavy hitters” in that we both had to drastically change our way of dress, our names, and therefore our identies in order to participate.
How many Hari Krishnas made their living through begging and book selling? I don’t think that was very good PR for the group, but it did make them quite well known! I don’t think it’s as common today. What is the main source of revenue now for the participants? How much are they expecte dto tithe?
Also, I know you have been out of your group for a long time like many of us, but what changes do you see since BS Prabhupada (I hope I didn’t mangle that) died? Also, how “hands on” was he when he was alive? Although Yogi Bhajan set him self above and apart from us, he was very much a physical part of our lives for many years. He would teach courses, give lectures, and even visit the various ashrams throughout each year.
I also wanted to mention that in my senior year of High School , 1971, our school invited a number of Hari Krishnas the school. They set them up in a commons area and they spent the whole day chanting while we could walk in and out to see them. I don’t think they spoke to many of us at all. Just chanted all day. Ofcourse, that was so many years ago that who knows what “all day” was- it’s just a memory now. I went to high school on Long Island, a NY suburb.
NORI MUSTER:
Thanks for filling me in on the basics. Your group sounds demanding.
I will write more tomorrow.
Since I joined when SP died, I only know the myths and stories of what it was like in the day.
KAMALLA ROSE KAUR:
“Your group sounds demanding.”
Ha! Yes, it was impossible to ever do everything we were required to do each day. We suffered from sleep deprivation and we were into fasts and mono-diets.
NORI MUSTER:
What the heck is a mono diet? Only cabbage?
We were overworked too. Maybe keeping us busy prevented any questioning.
Prabhupada (1896-1977) came to America and established ISKCON in New York in 1965. As the organization grew, he traveled and gave Bhagavatam classes, installed deities, and led kirtans in ISKCON temples he visited. The Bhaktivedanta Archive in North Carolina has a full set of his tapes. Other tapes available include his room conversations (sometimes with celebs or other well known people), morning walks, chanting, and bhajans.
After years of studying ISKCON, my opinion is that SP did not run anything. Early on, by 1970 or so, a small group of unfaithful disciples began to dominate him. They isolated him, kept his honest disciples away, never let him out of their sight, never let him talk to anybody alone, and they possibly blackmailed him into silence about what was going on. Further, many of us believe that they allegedly murdered him. Not everybody shares this view, but it would explain a lot. Anybody who knew the organization at the time would admit that the conspiracy of unfaithful disciples at least metaphorically killed him, if not literally.
These men were ruthless. If they had disciples withholding money or skimming money off of one of their illegal operations, they would kill to get it. I knew most of them personally, although they had rules against talking to women, so it was not like I was “friends” with them. I was more like one of their glassy eyed dupes.
X-Yogi Bhajan Student 1:
One thing about Yogi Bhajan, YB for short- He was a dominant personality and control freak. Maybe it is the difference in religions; a cultural thing. No one could have gotten away with running his show.
What do you think these disciples used for blackmail?
KAMALLA ROSE KAUR:
Re: Monodiets - Hmmmm, not so much cabbage. Try 40 days of steamed beets. 40 days of steamed celery, or zukes….
NORI MUSTER:
YB was a smart cookie and shrewd. On the other hand, SP had the temerament of a sumissive Hindu. You know, God (Krishna) is in control, so just go with the flow, don’t question, don’t challenge, don’t get angry, don’t stand out. I even heard that he knew his disciples were killing him, but he thought it was Krishna’s will so he let it happen. Legend has it that SP’s guru, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur (1874-1936), was also murdered by his disciples. Maybe SP thought it was his destiny. At any rate, people say that he tried to tell his Bengali friends about his suspicions, but nobody could help him.
If some psychopath is out to rip us off or hurt us, thinking positive will not help. People underestimate psychopaths, in general, I believe. Like President Bush. People think, “Aw, he couldn’t be that bad.” No, treason is treason, even if the president does it.
re. SP blackmail. This is just my theory, and I’m the only one who thinks it, but I have spoken with several Prabhupada disciples and they say there could be something to it . . . I believe that the unfaithful disciples homosexualized SP and then threatened to tell his disciples he was a homosexual. They used to give him massages for hours a day.
One of his disciples (one of the eleven gurus) was a violent homosexual under his saffron sannyasi robes, and allgedly one of the murder conspirators, and I believe that he was sexual with SP on occasion. What better way to blackmail a guru?
IInstead of “mono diet,” they should call it the “anorexia diet,” or “closet anorexic enabling diet.” Ha ha, sounds unhealthy. Did you use orgainc veggies, I hope? If not, it could also be the “Round-up Diet.”
Re: Politics, iit does not worry me that Sikh Dharma/3HO and Transcendal Meditiation are active in Washington DC, because they probably lobby for helping the poor, getting natural health care for all and keeping supplements legal, world peace, all good stuff. On the other hand, when Rev. Moon lobbies Washington DC, he gives money to Jerry Fallwell and George HW Bush, and spreads paranoia about “family values,” in the r-wing Christian sense (anti-gay, anti-femnist, anti-privacy, etc.). Am I correct on that? What were YB’s goals in Washington?
As far as I know, ISKCON had no influence in Washington, but there were a lot of people in the organization who were on the CIA payroll. The overseas temples were also infiltrated by CIA spies. The CIA could get its spies into obscure countries where ISKCON had temples, dress up in robes, and nobody would suspect.
KAMALLA ROSE KAUR:
They say that Rajneesh was also heavily manipulated by his inner circle. Supposedly he had been on silence and in retreat for months when the infamous poisoning of the water supply took place. Or so I was told by one of Osho’s devotees. It wasn’t a case of blackmail in his case, of course. Rather Rajneesh simply let his students run the office, and they did all sort of evil things, and took all the money and ran.
Yogi Bhajan himself was involved with the CIA. Specifically he was involved with James Jesus Angleton.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Jesus_Angleton
X-Yogi Bhajan Student 1:
Homosexuality wouldn’t be surprising in a group where sexuality was so stifled between the sexes. That’s really too bad.
It really bothers me that YB was never convicted of rape or business crimes. To me, it means that he managed to make it to the end and get away with it all.
I think I had to learn the lesson in my life of what a sociopath is capable of first hand. YB was a classic one, but many thought him charming. I never would have believed what he was capable of had I not seen it first hand. He tried to break up my marriage by telling my husband that I had bad motives. I believed in him so much that if it wasn’t me he was talking about, I would probably still be there today.
Why did he do it? Money. He thought my husband was poised for a lucrative career. The joke was that we owed so much money from a prolongued education that to this day we haven’t recouped and gotten ahead. So much for his omniscience. (sp?)
X-Yogi Bhajan Student 2:
You wrote: “I think I had to learn the lesson in my life of what a sociopath is capable of first hand. YB was a classic one, but many thought him charming. I never would have believed what he was capable of had I not seen it first hand.”
I think one of the characteristics of a sociopath is that they can be quite charming in order to get what they want. And quite vicious when they don’t get it. So, you’re right, YB was a classic sociopath.
NORI MUSTER:
My boyfriend has an ex-girlfriend who is still affiliated with 3HO. He asked me about YB, whether he was a cult leader. At first I said he’s not one of the worst, compared to Moses David Berg (Children of God) or Charles Manson, for example, but he’s in the top eschelon of bad gurus. I dunno. What were his specific wrong doings?
In ISKCON, SP was more naive than evil, but his neglegence led to mucho abuse.
X-Yogi Bhajan Student 1:
People are going to write you back a long laundry list of alleged crimes and even show you proof.
But to me, the worst abuse that Bhajan perpertrated was how deeply he controlled people’s lives. He kept people in a state of childhood where they relied on him to make the important decisions that come with being an adult. People asked him where they should live, what they should wear, what they should name their children, whom they should marry, and even what career to study. In a way, by making himself so important, he became between so many marriages. Almost like a Krishna or a Radha figure, he became the real object of affection that many saw in eachother and throughout the day. He set himself up as a perfect all-knowing human being; and he set us up as neurotic wanna-be’s who had to fake it and make it to get through life.
NORI MUSTER:
That sounds like a typical cult leader. Have you read the book, Feet of Clay, by Anthony Storr? He describes good and bad gurus, from Rajneesh to Jesus, and describes what makes them believe they are gurus. Very interesting book. Read it a few years ago while attending an ICSA (International Cultic Studies Assocation) conference. It kept me sane.
X-Yogi Bhajan Student 1:
That’s one book that I missed. I’ll look it up on Amazon. The pivotal book for me that transitioned me out of the group was “The Guru Papers”.
Another difference between our groups is that the after-guru years are just playing out now in 3HO. Most of us have been out for quite a while and really won’t know what is going on until a present member writes a book or something.
I was wondering: were you ever scared to write a book and expose people who could conceivably hurt you? Also, how do you feel about Indian religions and religion in general in your post ISKON years?
Were you married within the group? There had to be serious re-adjustment issues going back to Western society that your relationship must have had to undergo. Never mind that old issue of did you both realize at the same time that it was a cult?
Did you experience depression right after leaving? Do you generally tell people today that you meet about your past? Does it color your view of the world today? For instance, do you ever feel like what you went through was so different than people who stayed on the “straight and narrow”? Do you still have any friends that are still in the group?
I hope this isn’t too many questions or too personal, but you get the idea. Post cult adaption back into the world. I was a member of 3HO for 20 yrs.
NORI MUSTER
The book needed to be written, so I wrote it. The people in the organization who already knew me from the ISKCON World Review probably knew I would write a book. They appreciated my ten years of service to the organization and if pressed would have to acknowledge that I deserved to have my say.
The talking point is that they have much bigger problems than me. Besides, they can easily discount my book to their followers. None of the leaders are worried about me.
Plus, I let ISKCON’s p.r. department officially read the manuscript on behalf of the GBC in 1995. Mukunda Goswami and Anuttama dasa gave me 25 pages of suggestions that I took into consideration before it went to press. They asked me to change the title, but since nobody could come up with a better title, I kept “Betrayal of the Spirit.”
Also, how do you feel about Indian religions and religion in general in your post ISKON years?
It has taken years to sort the “baby from the bathwater,” but I place the blame for what happened squarely on the officials in the organization who screwed things up so badly. They used Krishna for their own greed. The Hindu religion was there thousands of years before ISKCON came along, so I separate the religion and philosophy from ISKCON.
Even before I met devotees, I loved all Eastern religions and all religions and spiritual philosophies. Now, after nearly 19 years since leaving ISKCON, I’ve gone back to my beliefs before joining. Most of my “triggers” are gone now. The only thing that still bothers me is to get too close for comfort. Like, it has been nine years since I’ve visited any ISKCON property or festival. It also makes me uncomfortable to use ISKCON lingo. Once in a while I joke about it with some old ISKCON friend.
Were you married within the group?
Yes. I was lucky to have a good person as my husband and we escaped the group together. He lives in Toronto now and has a successful life.
There had to be serious re-adjustment issues going back to Western society that your relationship must have had to undergo. Never mind that old issue of did you both realize at the same time that it was a cult?
He realized it before me.
Did you experience depression right after leaving?
Somewhat, but I enrolled at a local college and got my master’s degree. It was a state college, so it was inexpensive, too! My graduate work changed my life.
Do you generally tell people today that you meet about your past?
Yes, but it’s not the first thing I usually say about myself. It’s impossible for me to escape it because I have a book. I’d rather tell people myself than have them find out.
Does it color your view of the world today?
All humans have experiences that color our vision of reality, so in that sense, yes, absolutely.
For instance, do you ever feel like what you went through was so different than people who stayed on the “straight and narrow”?
Yes, I feel like my life is exotic, eccentric, even surreal. Not tragic, not sad, just unusual. That’s why I called my website Surrealist.org.
Do you still have any friends that are still in the group?
I have about six cherished, close friends from those years. Knowing them and having them around is adequate reward for going through that hell.
I hope this isn’t too many questions or too personal, but you get the idea. Post cult adaption back into the world. I was a member of 3HO for 20 yrs.
The questions are great. I have one for you and others at the forum. How about if we compare colored glasses? Mine make me see a scary world sometimes. Other times they help me see through it all. What kind of colored glasses do you get from 3HO?
X-Yogi Bhajan Student 1:
What kind of colored glasses do you get from 3HO?
I had to think about this for a while, but I tend to be a cynic when it comes to religion and authoritarian figures and followers as well.
NORI MUSTER:
I get cynical about privileged white Americans thinking they can just put on Asian clothing and think they understand Asian religions. Is that what you mean?
X-Yogi Bhajan Student 1:
Well, that’s certainly part of it, but with me it goes further. I am cynical about how the second generation has been brought up in India and doesn’t know if they are Indian or American.
I’m also cynical of any despot, religious or political; anyone who tries to say they are more than human, selfless, or subtley cultivates power then tries to act humble.
I am also cynical of any foriegner who comes to another country and makes up their own rules-away from the traditional cultural taboos that go along with the “pure religion” that they preach.
I’m cynical of people who channel their need for a daddy or an authority figure into a religious figure or even a politician.
And I am cynical of the role that religion plays in taming human behaviour so it will allow people in society to have their places.
And….in my old age I am even questioning how much of what God is is personal, and how much is impersonal.
is so diverse, and we see that as a positive thing, it is considered normal to look to many other cultures for input. Only we don’t realize where the cultural boundaries start and end.
For instance, my daughter has been into Manga the last couple of years; Japanese comics. It goes along with a whole culture including Japanese folklore which is included in the comics. One day she came home and decided to find new friends. She said that she realized that she could never be Japanese, and even if she went to Japan, she would always be an outsider. So why perpetuate a fantasy?
Joining what was essentially an Asian fundmanentalist religion made me see how much fantasy we all incorporate into our inner lives. Maybe because our dreams and our sub-conscious minds operate on that level, I don’t know. But because I was brought up Jewish without the heirarchy of avtars, saints and Godhead figures, I really see the same fantasy threads that run through most religions now. Jesus, Krishna, Guru Gobind Singh, they’re all names for the same thing. A human personification of God that is not quite the omnipresent monotheistic spirit that we call God, has achieved what we can, but never will. Well, in the eastern mind, we all theoretically can achieve it with the right karma or mantra, but it is basically out of reach to us in the west.
Where does that leave me though? Sort of in spiritual limbo, but at least willing to be open to the unknown.
NORI MUSTER:
Your words are so comforting. We can take things from other religions and incorporate them into our own belief system. That’s what Carl Jung recommended, and Joseph Campbell, and all those who have come along in that line. When Jung was working, in the early part of the 20th century, people were interested in other cultures because of archaeological finds in Egypt, Babylon, etc., and he helped people accept these new symbols as part of the collective consciousness. Like, if his patient had a numinous dream about an ank, for example, instead of seeing it as a foreign symbol, he encouraged the dreamer to relate to it as a personal symbol.
Myself, I love all the Asian religions, gods, gurus, and all, but I would never proclaim myself a Hindu. When I was in ISKCON, I had a friend, a Hindu life member, who had lived in Uganda under Idi Amin. He told us how one day, Idi Amin ordered that all the Hindus had to leave. My friend had to leave behind a beautiful hilltop home, all his bank accounts, etc., and get out of the country with nothing or be killed. He came to Los Angeles and started a sandwich shop in Downtown L.A. He had to suffer for his religion and he came to America as an immigrant with nothing. That’s what I mean about us, as privileged Americans, cannot actually put ourselves into an ancient religion and claim to be of that religion, understanding that religion. It would be like trying to pretend we were African American, or something. There is no way a white American can truly understand the Black experience, and I believe there’s no way we can really understand the Asian experience, either.
I dunno. Maybe it’s just me.
I have a lot of respect for people of other cultures, and am somewhat of a self-hating American. Ha ha. Maybe there’s a lot of that these days.
KAMALLA ROSE KAUR:
Hinduism and also New Age-ism are so hard to define. How much Hinduism depends on being of East Indian descent is hard to say. Many Hindus appear to enjoy multiculturalism. They seem very welcoming when I have visited Hindu temples. Many Hindu Swamis and Gurus went looking for Western students, like even Vivekananda. Hard to not love and respect, really respect, Vivekanada. Vedanta has great beauty and truth. I also have great respect for “the chant and dance your way to God” cultures and relgions, including Krishna worship, and Grateful Dead concerts. Much of all that might be called “Universalism”.
I am a Sikh these days. You are right that I can never be Punjabi, nor do I have any desire to be Punjabi. But I can be a Sikh. My background and heritage is as good as theirs. You can be a Sikh, if you wish to be, and when you practice Sikhi.
That said, do I understand Sikhs of Punjabi descent? No, I don’t much of the time, and they don’t understand me either - but we all seem to love TRYING to understand each other. I have a lifetime LOVE of cross-cultural conversing. It gets me high and makes me happy. Just because I can’t ever truly understand what it is like to be Black doesn’t mean I am not out to try. We pale faced Westerners bore me so down through my life, African Americans have adopted me and done their best but I’m still a Honkey. Luckily my friends of “color” are not racists and they understand how I don’t understand and it is OK that I am a Gringo.
And….Wearing all white and a turban in the USA is not at all the same as being Black in the USA, granted. But then again, getting heckled and hassled is kind of universal.
By the way, I was trying to imagine what it must have been like to work with men who didn’t speak to women. Suddenly I have a flash-back of being in YB’s group serving tea and goodies to cult men with titles. I was a married woman and a Mom and completely invisable. Was that what it was like? Was it like being non-existant?
It is really great having you here. comparing lives. Regarding the crimeside of Yogi Bhajan’s group; arms and drugs trafficking, money laundering, lots of fraud, sexual sadness and horror within the harem (a harem that we somehow, through the thick fog, didn’t know about - because YB was celibate, he didn’t even do it with his wife! He told us so himself!And since we believed the part of his not dong it with his wife, we somehow also believed that, though he slept with his secretaries, he didn’t touch them….), an unsolved murder…
I think, however, what makes YB’s cult extra scary is that YB’s bodyguards formed a company called AKAL Security which has found a it’s home in Homeland Security.
http://rickross.com/reference/3ho/3ho97.html
YB and group are very involved with the Congress Party of India, YB’s group launched the whole “offshoring USA jobs to India” project, rumor is the YB was working with the CIA while being investigated by the FBI, YB’s group is deep into the Clinton and also Bush corporate rule, globalization efforts.
We also do not know who is now running the organization. It has a “secret” inner core….
NORI MUSTER:
Wow, nice assortment of crime. Congratulations to YB.
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